Curse

sir lockt · May 31, 2006, 06:58 AM // 06:58

Indeed boring to watch.. but I truly liked to see some of the match... and I was really impressed on the time how long iB could hold out against FoC.

When you reach that kind of high-lvl GvG you play to win, not for beauty. I think many guilds will keep the FoC of EW in mind and will run some counters just as precaution.

I believe iB fought a very good match, preventing kills for so long and staying on their feet. Imperial Isle is terrible to counter spike, and taking spike themselves was a nice move.

Good job both teams! although it wasnt an eye-opener for the observers, it WAS the final of a play-off... and the points are worth a lot.

Maybe we should start a thread how to counter FoC without losing from other builds, it certainly does make GvG more interesting with so much possibilities.... and we dont have to complain about boring finals anymore

Illegrian · May 31, 2006, 10:14 AM // 10:14

Im just curious, you keep complaining about "boring finals" just because EW did whatever they could to win a match? If you were on their place, im 100% sure any of you would have done everything to get those points which pretty much assured EW:s trip to germany. Start talking shit on forums when YOU are the one playing IN the finals, not just some random noob who finds it cool to critisize the guilds who actually are good in playing this game.

Kriegar · May 31, 2006, 11:50 AM // 11:50

Boring to watch yes, but I'd do the same in their position. Well played, good choice of build/maps to secure the title despite handicapping yourself by allowing Elendar to play.

Thom · May 31, 2006, 11:52 AM // 11:52

Every top guild should have a "cheap" spike build up their sleeve. You don't have to play it regularly, but if you are really a top 16 team you should know how to spike. Simply having the threat of playing a good spike gives a team an advantage in tournement play, since it forces the opponent to consider that possiblity.

Not only is spiking a good play in theory, it was the right play for the moment. EW took a certain risk playing the same game twice, since you are openning yourself up to the possiblity of a counter (or even a mirror build). That sad, often repeating a strategy is as unexpected as anything else you could do. Teams that have a strong identity were largely exploited this tournement by teams willing to adjust this tournement. I for one like this trend.

Tortoise · May 31, 2006, 02:23 PM // 14:23

I'm still unsure about all of this. Was it a right call to make from EW? Yes, probably (although they did take a risk). Given this situation, could iB reasonably have come up with a counter? Perhaps but it would've been damn hard and I don't really see how they could've won it if EW wouldn't have screwed up.

One of my favorite GvG matches ever was the second battle between LuM vs WM in Taipei. WM, playing their heavy split build that relied almost solely on melee damage to make kills faced LuM on the Fire Isle who had packed a bonder and an Aegis chain. The fact that WM was able to win the match was pretty amazing and has always served as a great example to me just how important 'skill' was.

Though I can agree that picking the right builds and playing the mindgames is all a very important aspect of High Lvl PvP I still think that the 'skill on the field' should be the most determining factor. What bothered me in the final was not that EW played a spike build or that they outsmarted iB buildwise but that I didn't have a feeling that 'skill on the field' was the actual determining factor in the outcome of the matches. I don't feel as though 'skill' would've made that much of a difference... Don't get me wrong, it's not that I don't think EW and iB both played skillfull. Both have played three great matches and earned their places as finalist both in previous matches as in the final matches. My point is more that there wasn't really a way that a more skillfull approach could've determined another outcome. I felt as though GW was slowly slipping away from a game of 'action-chess' to a game of 'advanced-rock, paper, scissors'. The fact that we saw so many teams chose for fire-isle + thumpers didn't help.

I don't think this should just be a discussion about whether or not the finals were boring, spikes are for nubcakes or EW's leet mind-reading abilities. At the core there is the question of how we want GW to evolve. Guillaume De Sonoma brings up a good point when he says:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guillaume De Sonoma

my only problem is what will this bring for the next championship? Will teams in the first seed(or the highest in their route to the finals) take imperial ilse and run a similar build to what EW did and just rely on their higher rank to allow them to win because splitting will be nearly impossible and they can stop all splits?

I for one would like to see more matches in the LuM vs WM style where 'skill' still has a reasonable chance off winning even when facing a counterbuild. The balance between 'chess' and 'rock, paper, scissors' is important. I feel as though the latter has been too dominating in these playoffs. Both have their place in GW. The question is just how much importance each should have...

JR · May 31, 2006, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tortoise

II felt as though GW was slowly slipping away from a game of 'action-chess' to a game of 'advanced-rock, paper, scissors'. The fact that we saw so many teams chose for fire-isle + thumpers didn't help.

Removing Burning Isle and Imperial Isle would go a long way towards discouraging gimmicky builds in GvG. I personally would back that move 100%. Or at least allow the Thief to go through the teleporters...

nohooiam · May 31, 2006, 04:12 PM // 16:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Or at least allow the Thief to go through the teleporters...

exactly.

Blame the Monks · May 31, 2006, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by M3lk0r

Fixing and balancing builds/maps is Anet's job, winning is the players job.

QFT. A.net messed up having a tourney so soon after the release - maps were untested, skills are not yet balanced.

The match was boring and I hope for the health of the game some of the spike teams and maps are fixed to favor balanced teams. Of course, I also hope various "balanced" builds get nerfed so we can have more diversity of play.

Still, I congratulate EW and would have done the same thing.

Ensign · May 31, 2006, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Removing Burning Isle and Imperial Isle would go a long way towards discouraging gimmicky builds in GvG. I personally would back that move 100%. Or at least allow the Thief to go through the teleporters...

Burning Isle is obsolete with the introduction of Jade Isle and Imperial Isle. Both of those restrict movement more than Burning Isle did. If you want to spike play Imperial, if you want to play pressure in a bandbox play Jade. Burning Isle is downright reasonable in comparison.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blame the Monks

The match was boring and I hope for the health of the game some of the spike teams and maps are fixed to favor balanced teams.

The map plays a huge role in who is favored to win a match. Spike, for instance, can have a terrible time trying to win against a movement-enabled team on a more open map like Frozen Isle, Druid's Isle, or even Warrior's Isle. Even if they do pull it out it's going to be a miserable mess of running around and trying to catch mistakes. On the flip side, on Imperial Isle movement becomes largely irrelevant and you're forced into fighting 8v8 in the open, a perfect situation for spike. The way playoffs are set up, it's only natural for each team to bring both a build and a map that is most advantageous to them and most disadvantageous to their opponent. This is not a bad thing, but it does lead to teams bringing 8v8 spike builds that are nigh-impossible to crack and forcing them down their opponent's throats. It might not be pretty, but it's good strategy. =)

Peace,
-CxE

JR · May 31, 2006, 07:12 PM // 19:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Burning Isle is obsolete with the introduction of Jade Isle and Imperial Isle. Both of those restrict movement more than Burning Isle did. If you want to spike play Imperial, if you want to play pressure in a bandbox play Jade. Burning Isle is downright reasonable in comparison.

Peace,
-CxE

True enough, but Necrospike played fairly well on Burning Isle is still damn hard to beat. I would honestly say that for spike oriented builds that Burning is more suitable than Jade, from my experience.

BuddyLeeX · May 31, 2006, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by [EW]Elendar

I know where i stand on this, and thats in a shiny gold cape

yes it was a gimmick build, and boring to watch, but do you really think thats what we where worried about?
Its not a ladder build, as it needs a specific map and needs to be unexpected, but for suprise value it rocks against unprepared teams

Amen...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trelon Burg

Congrats to EW on their great accomplishments. Also, irresistable blokes are some great players to watch as well and put forth a more than valiant effort.

Now to topic, first I don't understand why you would complain and flame about EW's build, since it was a great play towards tipping the chance for their guild to win and they had control of it due to their earned seeding. If anything can be said about unfair it would be as above mentioned with the benefits from 3 spirit spammers and soul reaping. With that said, I don't see this thread actually proving anything worth stating other than complaints about entertainment value and gimmicks, which is nothing new or noteworthy. Stop the flame and play the game.

and Amen...

Stop complaining and start respecting. EW did a great job to do what they came there to do, win.

Thom · May 31, 2006, 08:38 PM // 20:38

How about a random map for the third game? Give each team a chance to beat their opponent on their home turf where the home team should win, then force the teams to play a map neutral build for the final game.

I know this kind of kills the advantage of the higher ranked team, but it is better than the current situation.

Ensign · May 31, 2006, 09:39 PM // 21:39

There isn't anything wrong with using the same map for the third game as the first. Both teams know what's coming. If it's a dumb spike map, you play spike - if it's movement, you play movement. Pretty simple. It's only a disadvantage if you can't adapt a build for different maps.

I wouldn't fault the rules for putting game 3 of the finals on Imperial. If anything fault iB for not running Necrospike there. =)

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

True enough, but Necrospike played fairly well on Burning Isle is still damn hard to beat. I would honestly say that for spike oriented builds that Burning is more suitable than Jade, from my experience.

Yeah, but Imperial is so much better than either of those for spike that it really doesn't matter all that much. If all you want to do is spike people out 8v8, just run Imperial. It's perfect for spiking and doesn't make you succeptable to pressure like fire does.

I honestly don't know why you'd ever run fire in a serious match again. It's kinda like Hunter's or Wizard's - sure, you *could* use it, but it's basically inferior to Warriors in every way that matters, so why bother?

Peace,
-CxE

JR · Jun 01, 2006, 12:04 AM // 00:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Yeah, but Imperial is so much better than either of those for spike that it really doesn't matter all that much. If all you want to do is spike people out 8v8, just run Imperial. It's perfect for spiking and doesn't make you succeptable to pressure like fire does.

I honestly don't know why you'd ever run fire in a serious match again. It's kinda like Hunter's or Wizard's - sure, you *could* use it, but it's basically inferior to Warriors in every way that matters, so why bother?

Peace,
-CxE

True, but that is not the point I am getting at. In the context of taking maps *out* of the game, then after taking Imperial out; Burning would be the instant next choice to gimmick spike builds. Taking one out without the other wouldn't really make a huge difference. Imperial *is* even better for pure spike, yes, but Burning is still a close second.

Ensign · Jun 01, 2006, 12:13 AM // 00:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

True, but that is not the point I am getting at. In the context of taking maps *out* of the game, then after taking Imperial out; Burning would be the instant next choice to gimmick spike builds. Taking one out without the other wouldn't really make a huge difference. Imperial *is* even better for pure spike, yes, but Burning is still a close second.

There actually are some pretty significant differences. For starters, you can realistically try and split on the fire map - even if that just means running some people past their team to threaten the base. War Machine did that with some success against LuM in the world championships. On Imperial Isle, you can't pressure the base at all, because you need a guild thief - and the only way to get it up to the gate is to basically run it through an opposing spike team. Not likely.

The other big difference is how Burning Isle makes you vulnerable to pressure and AoE effects, due to the relatively small area near the flag stand. Cry of Frustration in particular gets nastier on that map as it can become impossible to spike someone without bunching up for it. Imperial on the other hand diffuses pressure, both teams can spread out, make warriors run around more, and generally slow the game down.

In some ways I actually prefer the Desert Isle to Burning Isle for spiking - faster flagging, more open, bad for pressure teams. But there is no choice involved in taking Imperial for spiking. It rewards that strategy to the exclusion of all others - there's next to nothing you can use against the other team. Maddening, really.

It's enough that I feel a spike team needs to run into a horrendous build disadvantage, or be willfully incompetent, to lose on Imperial Isle.

Peace,
-CxE

BuddyLeeX · Jun 01, 2006, 01:32 AM // 01:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom

How about a random map for the third game? Give each team a chance to beat their opponent on their home turf where the home team should win, then force the teams to play a map neutral build for the final game.

I know this kind of kills the advantage of the higher ranked team, but it is better than the current situation.

all you would be doing is penalizing the higher seeds. They worked hard for a higher seed and now they are penalized for it? Doesnt sounds right.

just call me jimmy · Jun 01, 2006, 01:37 AM // 01:37

wow this is awesome responces!!!
One thing I think allot of the people who are defending EW's build are forgetting.
You only know what map and who you will face in Championships. During the season you have no clue. Meaning unles you have the skill sets to defend a spike like this you are doomed no matter what map it is. They can attack vitualy any char and spike him to death in a second. (monks Included). Also if you do set up to defend against this build, you will pretty much get slaughtered by any other build. Meaning this build has a huge advantage because most teams will not be able to defend against it.
As before everyone has done an awesome job makin there points, and not flaming eachother!!!!!

JR · Jun 01, 2006, 01:40 AM // 01:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by just call me jimmy

wow this is awesome responces!!!
One thing I think allot of the people who are defending EW's build are forgetting.
You only know what map and who you will face in Championships. During the season you have no clue.

That is exactly WHY I personally am defending EW's build choice; if they didn't know it was going to be Imperial then that would have been a stupid build choice. But they did, and it wasn't.

BuddyLeeX · Jun 01, 2006, 01:51 AM // 01:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by just call me jimmy

wow this is awesome responces!!!
One thing I think allot of the people who are defending EW's build are forgetting.
You only know what map and who you will face in Championships. During the season you have no clue. Meaning unles you have the skill sets to defend a spike like this you are doomed no matter what map it is. They can attack vitualy any char and spike him to death in a second. (monks Included). Also if you do set up to defend against this build, you will pretty much get slaughtered by any other build. Meaning this build has a huge advantage because most teams will not be able to defend against it.
As before everyone has done an awesome job makin there points, and not flaming eachother!!!!!

I am sure these guys play eachother during the season many times so they knew what iB might run, gg.

just call me jimmy · Jun 01, 2006, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Yep Jr yourself and others have made me rethink my hating of this build. From 100% to 80%

. I totaly agree with "Do what it takes to win"
What I mean though is for top 100 Guilds makin a run at the top 10. Or for that matter Low ranked guilds unfortunate enough to face this builds or a couple like it (read my previous thread about why a team would loose). These would basicaly be free wins for anyone running these these tyoe of spikes.